As we all know (unless you’re experiencing an excessive amount of denial that goes beyond what one encounters in mid-life crisis), no person on earth is immune to death. We all walk down the corridors of time to it’s inevitable, inescapable and ultimate conclusion. Time itself is a stalker of us all, waiting to pounce on it’s weakening prey as it’s exhaustable reserves of life and energy dwindle down from a bright burning flame to but a dying ember. Suddenly, the stalker called time pounces and collects it’s trophy. So it goes with the man or woman who is fortunate enough to live out their full number of alloted years. Some people, of course, are unfortunate enough that this unforgiving beast called time doesn’t wait to pounce on a dying ember. Sometimes, time is cruel and has an appetite for a bright burning flame and has no patience for a dying ember as it pounces and collects it’s next trophy. And of course, at that very moment, it will not matter what amount of money and things we amassed in our lifetimes. It will only matter where we go next once we leave our body and soar into the great unknown.Of course, many if not most, have their own opinions about what does or does not happen to us once we breathe our last breath. Some are of the opinion that nothing exists beyond the grave and that this life is it. Once it’s over, it’s over. There is no life beyond this one. Period. Then of course, some have their own religious beliefs about what and who God is and conduct their lives accordingly in anticipation of the end result of that belief upon death. But for those who search for the real truth with unbiased opinion and preconceived notions about what and who God is, the evidence points not to a religion, but to the very truth of who God really is, and more importantly, what he requires of each and every person who wishes to spend eternity with him and not separated from him. Of course, I speak of the God of the Bible who manifested himself among men in Jesus Christ over two thousand years ago. He (Jesus) is the God of the Old Testament who was there in the beginning of creation, the one who created all that is seen and unseen. It is he that warned that all are separated from him, not only in this life, but for eternity after death … unless one vital and crucial decision is made. That vital and crucial decision is the key to avoid a very real place of eternal suffering. That key is to personally accept his sacrifice that he made upon the cross for your eternal salvation. In part 1 of this two-part eternal security series, I covered the “how” aspect of what it takes and what is required to secure one’s spot in Heaven and avoid the horrible alternative (link below).
ETERNAL SECURITY DEBATE 1: CAN A PERSON LOSE SALVATION ONCE RECEIVED?https://endtimesdarknessdescending.wordpress.com/2017/07/28/the-eternal-security-debate-can-a-person-lose-their-salvation-once-saved/
In biblical terminology, this is known as being “saved,” or “born again.” Using biblical scripture, I also answered the question of whether a person can possibly, for one reason or another, lose that salvation once received. This question was answered in a debate format with commenters who disagree that salvation cannot be lost based upon their view and interpretation of certain scriptures. I countered those arguments with what I see as the correct interpretation of said scriptures and very convincingly make the case that salvation, once received, is forever and cannot be lost. My interpretation of said scriptures comes from not just my own personal opinion and what I wish for them to say, but a conclusion based upon carefully deciphered context using the principle of Isaiah 28:10 which urges us to put line upon line, precept upon precept to get a full picture and proper understanding of what is being truly conveyed to the reader. Using this principle, the issue of whether or not a saved, born again believer can lose salvation once received really becomes a non-issue. In reading the comments and various opinions in the comment sections of people who say that one can lose their salvation once received, one will begin to realize (if they are completely honest with themselves sccripturally speaking) that this interpretation contradicts many passages of biblical scripture that state otherwise. The misinterpretation comes as a result of much “cherry picking” of the biblical text and not reading and properly discerning the whole context and subject matter of a given chapter or body of discussion conducted by the Apostles or Jesus.
Cherry picking definition: “(also known as: suppressed evidence, fallacy of incomplete evidence, argument by selective observation, argument by half-truth, card stacking, fallacy of exclusion, ignoring the counter evidence, one-sided assessment, slanting, one-sidedness). Description: When only select evidence is presented in order to persuade the audience to accept a position, and evidence that would go against the position is withheld. The stronger the withheld evidence, the more fallacious the argument.
Explanation: What information was left out of the example is that this same candidate gives 10% of his income to needy prostitutes in exchange for services, goes to the drug dealer every Sunday after church (and sometimes before), and only works at the homeless shelter to get clients for his drug dealing business. This is a prime example of cherry picking. A very good and glaring example can be seen in Jesus’ own statement in John 6:39 that he will lose nobody, but raise them up on the last day. Obviously, if the idea that one can lose salvation based upon the text of other scripture is correct, we have an obvious contradiction in biblical scripture. If we have a contradiction in scripture, than that means that the bible could not be trusted and is not really the inspired word of God. Of course, we know that the Bible is indeed the inspired and inerrant word of God, so the logical and conclusive problem can only be a person’s perception and interpretation of certain scriptures that leads them to believe this unsettling and fearfully poisonous doctrine. I do realize that no matter what amount of scriptural evidence that one points to that indicates that a saved, born again believer cannot lose their salvation, some are still going to cling to their views no matter what the evidence says to the contrary. But for those on the fence about the issue and are possibly concerned that they could lose their salvation, then this article is for you. This article is also most definitely for you if you are not a Christian to begin with and are interested in looking at the claims of Christianity and of Christ himself who emphatically warned that he is the only way to Heaven and to the Father … “Thomas said unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? Jesus said unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me” (John 14:5-6). As mentioned earlier, I’ve already shared the “how to” aspect of becoming a true, born again Christian as God requires and securing your spot in Heaven (link provided above).
Since that article was written, I have encountered more commenters from my youtube channel’s videos that have presented more biblical text that they see as confirming that eternal security is conditional. These are scriptural texts that were not covered in part 1. It is for this reason that I think it necessary to present part 2 and continue the scriptural
slaughter and mow down the other side of the Satanic argument already thoroughly deadly wounded debate that is suffering from a vicious and gaping gun wound to the head debate and, hopefully for many more people, put to rest the idea that salvation can be lost. With that said, enjoy the continuing debate.
MARY CAGE > STEPHEN RUSSELL – What do you think the narrow way IS? Keeping the law perfectly? Of course not! The narrow way is Jesus Himself, His death, burial and resurrection on our behalf.
STEPHEN RUSSELL > MARY CAGE – Explain the Sermon on the Mount. Does not one way lead to damnation, but the other to life? And where does Jesus say that the ones on the right path have to be sinless? Isn’t that your addition, Mary? (An addition by which you then discount the point of His teaching.) So, in that sermon, doesn’t He give an example prayer for the righteous? And what does that prayer say? Do you know it? Doesn’t it ask for forgiveness? So then, those on the right path are not sinless, but neither are they free to live as they choose.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > STEPHEN RUSSELL – Some preachers and expositors of the Bible say the Sermon on the Mount is the Constitution for Christian Living, or call it a Manifesto for the Life of a Follower of Christ. Don’t you believe it. Such teaching is nothing more than legalism dressed up in fancy phrasing. Take a look at the language Jesus used in the first part of the sermon, immediately following telling his listeners they need to be more righteous than the Pharisees. He covers some of the biggest moral issues imaginable, both in his day and ours – murder, adultery, divorce, promises, vengeance, and love – and tells them about each:
“You have heard that it was said … but I tell you … .” (Matthew 5:21-22, 27-28, 31-32, 33-34, 38-39, 43-44.)
Six times Jesus points out that their understanding of a righteous life under the laws of Moses was insufficient. He closes the sermon by speaking in various ways on the single point of doing God’s will, including the sobering comment …
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” (Matthew 7:21.)
Jesus couldn’t be clearer: you can’t enter God’s kingdom unless you do the will of God the Father. Many have taken that phrase and jumped to the conclusion that in order to be a Christian they have to do everything – absolutely everything! – Jesus described in the sermon he just preached: they can’t hate another person because that’s the same as murder (Matthew 5:22), they can’t look at someone with lust because that’s the same as adultery (Matthew 5:28), etc. If that’s what Jesus meant, then no one enters the kingdom of God because no one is good except God. Jesus was clear on that too …
“A certain ruler asked him, ‘Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life? Jesus answered, ‘Why do you call me good? No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother’” (Luke 18:18-20).
When it comes to doing God’s will, though, Jesus told his friends it’s not about following a set of commandments on murder, adultery, stealing and lying. Jesus said it’s about Jesus-
“Then they asked him, ‘What must we do to do the works God requires?’ Jesus answered, ‘The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.” (John 6:28-29).
Like it or not, that’s all it takes. Believe in Jesus. That does not mean that merely believing that Jesus existed as a historical figure is all it takes. It means that you believe that he is who he said he is and you personally receive him for the forgiveness of your sin of unbelief. As a result of your receiving him, your sins past, present and future are forgiven. See more about what it means to “believe in Jesus” in the video below.
How can mere belief be a work of God? Because it means you acknowledge Jesus the same way your Father in Heaven does: that Jesus is God himself.
“No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also. (1 John 2:23).
“And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us” (1 John 3:23).
“… but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God” (1 John 4:3).
Yet, what is it about Jesus that means believing in him is all it takes to do God’s will? Jesus is the one who has perfectly lived out the Father’s will, and now we benefit from that and are counted as righteous along with Jesus, that’s what it means.
“But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe” (Romans 3:21-22).
“Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4).
“But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption” (1 Corinthians 1:30).
Some will insist that even though Jesus made us righteous, all that means is that you are now able to live righteously, now able to follow all those laws, and that the Sermon on the Mount is your guidebook for how to do that. That belief is utter absurdity and an impossible task to live out in our flailing bodies of death. Our basic human nature is still a nature of sin, death and corruption. Our lives are not about righteous living to hold onto our salvation, but about living a life of faith through God’s grace, which demonstrates that grace through right living.
“I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain” (Galatians 2:21).
“And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith” (Phillipians 3:9).
You might think, though, that this righteous life of faith through grace has eluded you for one simple reason: you keep on sinning. Well, join the club, my friend. Paul said …
“For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I” (Romans 7:15).
He was talking about the sin that remained in his life even after he had become a believer, been sent out as a missionary, and established churches throughout the eastern portion of the Roman Empire. He still sinned. Sound familiar?
John (one of Jesus’ closest friends) had an assurance for people like Paul – people like you and me …
“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:1-2).
How do you know that Jesus’s righteousness is fulfilled in you, though? You know because Jesus is “the author and perfecter of faith“, the one who originated (authored) your faith and perfected (completed) it for you. (Hebrews 12:2.) This is what Jesus does. Righteousness is found in him because he is the source of righteousness, and it is found in you because you belong to him and he has placed the Holy Spirit in you …
“In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory” (Ephesians 1:13-14).
Look at the words in that passage: Christ, salvation, believed, Holy Spirit, guarantee, inheritance, God’s possession. You are God the Father’s possession, and God the Holy Spirit guarantees your inheritance with Jesus, who is God the Son.
Hopefully, you can see now. This is not about you and your [in]ability to follow rules Jesus preached in the Sermon on the Mount to those under the law of Moses. This is
about God who has shown his grace in giving you the righteousness that Jesus himself achieved. As the Bible says, this is for “the praise of his glory.” Believe in Jesus, then. That is the work of God in your life. And in your belief, God gets the glory and praise. An important point to make is nor do I believe that one can “live as they please” and not suffer the consequences. The Bible speaks of the possibility that God can and does “chastise” the believer. This can take many forms such as the loss of rewards at the Judgment Seat of Christ that occurs for Christians after the event of the rapture. This is no small matter. The consequences for a sinning believer can also include painful circumstances in life or physical death, but not eternal death of the spirit/soul. Eternal death and separation from God in Hell is not one of them. That punishment is reserved for the unsaved, unbelieving individual who dies in that unbelief, or as Jesus puts it, “dies in their sins” as an unforgiven unbeliever.
UNKNOWN COMMENTER – How long did the eternal life of the angels that sinned last? It lasted until they completely turned away right? “And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day—” Jude 1:6 Did the angels that sinned not have eternal life to begin with? If so how did they forfeit it?
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > UNKNOWN COMMENTER – You’re comparing apples to oranges. Angels are a different creation than man. The bible even says that we’re made a little lower or different than the angels. Angels are not created in the full and complete image of God. Therefore, their turning away resulted in eternal damnation with no hope of eternal reconciliation and salvation through Christ. Christ died for human beings not angels. So the obtaining of eternal life, and by extension, the security that comes through it does not apply to angels. One cannot determine that human beings can lose salvation by looking at the plight or situation of angels.
JOHN ALVARES > STEPHEN RUSSELL/MOSES LAWRENCE – Justified by faith in the finished work of CHRIST. Period!!!! You would think that since all it takes is faith the road would be wide but yet nobodyyyyyyyyyyyyy puts their salvation on the finished work of CHRIST alone! Its insane. Out of 60 to 70 people i spoke to, majority believe in CHRIST and only a homeless man and a substitue teacher got it maybe right. Saved through grace by faith alone!!! Not of works. If someone still lives the same life in sin and there is no change after some time. That means they never truly had the HOLY SPIRIT, aka had faith on the finished work that CHRIST did. Because once someone is saved by faith, at that exact moment they recieve the HOLY SPIRIT. One who has GOD’s spirit will not live the same life. It is impossible to live the same life
STEPHEN ATKINSON – Yes the narrow path is simply Jesus Christ and him alone.
THE BIBLE SAYS > JOHN ALVARES/STEPHEN ATKINSON – Jesus said He came “to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28). The ransom is what He finished on the cross. That ransom payment is now available, by grace, to redeem us from the death penalty we have each earned for our past sins. This redemption is available IF we’ll choose repent, to turn from sin that earned us the death penalty in the first place. If we choose not to repent, we remain unredeemed from the death penalty we have earned for our past sins, and we will perish in death for our past sins (Romans 6:23). So Jesus’ warning, “except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” makes perfect sense (Luke 13:3,5). Jesus did not die to make it okay for us to continue in sin. He died to provide a ransom, so that we can be redeemed from death IF we’ll choose to turn from sin. The idea that Jesus “did it all for us on the cross” misleads many to think there’s nothing they need to do, and that all their sins – past, present and future – have already been forgiven. Sorry, our sins have not already been forgiven: we must confess and repent of them to be forgiven: “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” (Proverbs 28:13) “Faith alone” is useless: “faith without works is dead” (James 2:20 and 26). EXAMPLE: Without any faith, Abraham would have dismissed God’s promised blessings as unreal and that would have been the end of the story. Even with faith Abraham could have said to himself “Well, I think God’s promises are real but you know, I’d rather stay home and rely on faith rather than obey and go to the promised land, as I was instructed.” That’s dead faith, faith without works, faith without obedience. Would Abraham have received the blessings by staying home and claiming “faith alone”? No. Abraham acted on his faith. He obeyed. He packed and headed to the promised land. And he received the blessings. His obedience was his works. “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only” (James 2:25). So it is with us today: God “now commands all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). We need to act on that. Otherwise we perish: “Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Jesus, in Luke 13:3,5). Through faith (Ephesians 2:8) we come to realize that God’s promises and expectations are real. But without works – without obedience, without action – that faith means nothing. Faith alone is dead: nothing changes. Jesus is “the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Hebrews 5:9).
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > THE BIBLE SAYS – Another very misinterpreted scripture is James chapter 2. This is yet another example that if it is really saying what many people assume it’s saying, we have yet another contradiction in the bible. It is entirely true that the one verse in the Bible that contains the exact phrase “faith alone” seems to argue against salvation by faith alone. James 2:24 reads …
“You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone” (ESV).
However, rejecting the doctrine of salvation by faith alone based on this verse has two major problems. First, the context of James 2:24 is not arguing against the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. Second, the Bible does not need to contain the precise phrase “faith alone” in order to clearly teach salvation by faith alone. James 2:14–26, as a whole, and especially verse 24, has been the subject of some confused interpretations. The passage definitely seems to cause serious
problems for the “salvation by faith alone” concept. First, a major misconception needs to be cleared up here, namely, that James means the same thing by “justified” in James 2:24 that Paul means in Romans 3:28. Paul is using the word justified to mean “declared righteous by God.” Paul is speaking of God’s legal declaration of us as righteous as Christ’s righteousness is applied to our account. James is using the word justified to mean “being demonstrated and proved.” If one were to translate what is being said here, it would read like the following … “You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone” (emphasis added). Similarly, the NLT translation of James 2:24 reads, “So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone” (emphasis added). The entire James 2:14–26 passage is about proving the genuineness of your faith by what you do. A genuine salvation experience by faith in Jesus Christ will inevitably result in good works (Ephesians 2:10). The works are the demonstration and proof of faith (James 2:18). A faith without works is useless (James 2:20) and dead (James 2:17); in other words, it is not true faith at all. Salvation is by faith alone, but that faith will never be alone. While James 2:24 is the only verse that contains the precise phrase “faith alone,” there are many other verses that do, in fact, teach salvation by faith alone. Any verse that ascribes salvation to faith/belief, with no other requirement mentioned, is a declaration that salvation is by faith alone. John 3:16 declares that salvation is given to “whoever believes in Him.” Acts 16:31 proclaims, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved.” Ephesians 2:8 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith.” See also Romans 3:28; 4:5; 5:1; Galatians 2:16; 3:24; Ephesians 1:13; and Philippians 3:9. Many other verses could be referenced in addition to these. In summary, James 2:24 does not argue against salvation by faith alone. Rather, it argues against a salvation that is alone, a salvation devoid of good works and obedience to God’s Word. James’s point is that we demonstrate our faith by what we do (James 2:18). Regardless of the absence of the precise phrase “faith alone,” the New Testament definitely teaches that salvation is the product of God’s grace in response to our faith. “Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. On what principle? . . . On that of faith” (Romans 3:27). There is no other requirement. James says, “For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also” (James 2:26). Faith without works is a dead faith because the lack of works reveals an unchanged life or a spiritually dead heart. There are many verses that say that true saving faith will result in a transformed life, that faith is demonstrated by the works we do. How we live reveals what we believe and whether the faith we profess to have is a living faith. James 2:14–26 is sometimes taken out of context in an attempt to create a works-based system of righteousness, but that is contrary to many other passages of Scripture. James is not saying that our works make us righteous before God but that real saving faith is demonstrated by good works. Works are not the cause of salvation; works are the evidence of salvation. Faith in Christ always results in good works. The person who claims to be a Christian but lives in willful disobedience to Christ has a false or dead faith and is not saved. Paul basically says the same thing in 1 Corinthians 6:9–10. James contrasts two different types of faith—true faith that saves and false faith that is dead. Many profess to be Christians, but their lives and priorities indicate otherwise. Jesus put it this way …
“By their fruits you will know them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? Just so, every good tree bears good fruit, and a rotten tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’ Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers’” (Matthew 7:16–23).
Notice that the message of Jesus is the same as the message of James. Obedience to God is the mark of true saving faith. James uses the examples of Abraham and Rahab to illustrate the obedience that accompanies salvation. Simply saying we believe in Jesus does not save us, nor does religious service. What saves us is the Holy Spirit’s regeneration of our hearts, and that regeneration will invariably be seen in a life of faith featuring ongoing obedience to God. But if and when a true believer, who has the Spirit of God dwelling on the inside of him or her that has regenerated their spirit back to life from it’s state of death inherited from Adam, falls into sin or struggles doesn’t then mean that the spirit is suddenly “unregenerated” back into it’s state of death. Works and a bent toward striving to please God in your heart reveals itself in works. It does not mean that those works are what is saving one from damnation. This is what James is getting at. Misunderstanding the relationship of faith and works comes from not understanding what the Bible teaches about salvation. There are really two errors in regards to works and faith. The first error is “easy believism,” the teaching that, as long as a person prayed a prayer or said, “I believe in Jesus,” at some point in his life, then he is saved, no matter what. So a person who, as a child, raised his hand in a church service is considered saved, even though he has never shown any desire to walk with God since and is, in fact, living in blatant sin. This teaching, sometimes called “decisional regeneration,” is dangerous and deceptive. The idea that a profession of faith saves a person, even if he lives like the devil afterwards, assumes a new category of believer called the “carnal Christian.” This allows various ungodly lifestyles to be excused: a man may be an unrepentant adulterer, liar, or bank robber, but he’s saved; he’s just “carnal.” Yet, as we can see in James 2, an empty profession of faith—one that does not result in a life of obedience to Christ—is in reality a dead faith that cannot save. The other error in regards to works and faith is to attempt to make works part of what justifies us before God. The mixture of works and faith to earn salvation is totally contrary to what Scripture teaches. Romans 4:5 says …
“To him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5).
James 2:26 says, “Faith without works is dead.” There is no conflict between these two passages. We are justified by grace through faith, and the natural result of faith in the heart is works that all can see. The works that follow salvation do not make us righteous before God; they simply flow from the regenerated heart as naturally as water flows from a spring. Salvation is a sovereign act of God whereby an unregenerate sinner has the “washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit” poured out on him (Titus 3:5), thereby causing him to be born again (John 3:3). When this happens, God gives the forgiven sinner a new heart and puts a new spirit within him (Ezekiel 36:26). God removes his sin-hardened heart of stone and fills him with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit then causes the saved person to walk in obedience to God’s Word (Ezekiel 36:26–27). Faith without works is dead because it reveals a heart that has not been transformed by God. When we have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit, our lives will demonstrate that new life. Our works will be characterized by obedience to God. Unseen faith will become seen by the production of the fruit of the Spirit in our lives (Galatians 5:22). Christians belong to Christ, the Good Shepherd. As His sheep we hear His voice and follow Him (John 10:26–30). Faith without works is dead because faith results in a new creation, not a repetition of the same old patterns of sinful behavior. As Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 5:17, “If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” Faith without works is dead because it comes from a heart that has not been regenerated by God. Empty professions of faith have no power to change lives. Those who pay lip service to faith but who do not possess the Spirit will hear Christ Himself say to them, “I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers” (Matthew 7:23). So, bottom line, this is yet another scripture that people use to justify the view of conditional salvation. It is a view that is easily eviscerated and destroyed with the correct contextual view of scripture, as are all the others as I’ve already shown. One more conditional salvation view bites the dust.Your citing of Luke 13:3-5 is also out of context …
“There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Luke 13:3-5).
In this portion of scripture, Jesus was saying that it does not matter of the outward “extremeness” of one group of sins over another group of people’s sins. Those who are in unbelief are lost period. If a person over here is moral and lives right, while another one over there is not a moral person and does not live right, it doesn’t matter, They both are lost and on their way to eternal damnation. This is a matter of JUDICIAL salvation, not about if a believer sins that they will lose their salvation if unrepented of. The sin of unbelief of who Christ is is the only thing that will damn a person. Was Jesus telling (the Galilaeans) that because they were less sinners than those other ones that they were more righteous and would not perish? Answer: no. The lesser sinners of these Galilaens were also eternally damned unless they repented. This is not speaking of the ceasing of outward acts of sin on the part of these Galilaens so that they would not perish. Jesus was making the point that all are condemned without the required condition of accepting Christ as the ultimate sacrifice. The Galilaens that Christ was speaking to in Luke 13 were of the synagogue and under the law. They were not believers. Christ is speaking about repentance of unbelief for the forgiveness of those sins. This scripture is being taken out of context on your part. When one holds the conditional salvation view, it contradicts John 6:39 wherein Jesus said he would lose no one. It contradicts Romans 11:39 wherein Paul stated that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance, or irrevocable, meaning that God isn’t going to take it back. What is so hard to understand about those words? Obviously, if your view is correct, we have a major, major contradiction in the bible. With all due respect, isn’t it kinda obvious by now? Can you not see the contradiction here? Another conditional salvation view bites the dust.
Concerning your mention of Hebrews 5:9 … well, that one is painfully misunderstood by conditional salvationists as to be bemusing in light of other scripture. Let me explain … In this passage, obedience is synonymous with faith (Acts 6:7; Rom. 6:17; 10:16). The obedience involves compliance with His prescribed regulations for salvation (John 5:24). It does not view salvation as a reward for works of righteousness (Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9). The nature of the verb in your cited passage of Hebrews 5 indicates that man bears the responsibility for either the acceptance or rejection of Christ. The obedience mentioned here of those who obey Him is not that regarding commandments, rules, and regulations. It is not obedience to the law. It is “the obedience of faith” (Rom. 1:5). God wants us to obey Him by believing in Christ. True obedience, just as true works, is first of all true believing.
“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent” (John 6:29).
Trust in Jesus Christ is the work of faith and the obedience of faith. Sadly and tragically, all people do not believe. And whoever does not believe does not truly obey, no matter how moral, well-meaning, religious, and sincere. In First and Second Thessalonians, Paul speaks of the two responses to the gospel—the only two possible responses. In the second letter he tells of God’s retribution on those who “do not know God” and who “do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus” (1:8). In the first letter, by contrast, he praises the missionary work of the faithful Thessalonian Christians in Macedonia and Achaia (1:8). Their obedience in the faith brought others to obedience to the faith—and to the gift of eternal salvation. Well, so much for the Hebrews 5:9 “obedience salvation” view. Another one bites the dust.
You also cite Acts 17:30. Honestly, this one is just too easy. With just some simple analyzing and some Isaiah 28:10 action put into motion, one can bodyslam, eviscerate, decapitate, behead and bury the carcass of the beast of misinterpretation in Acts 17:30. Many understand the term repentance (from the Greek word metanoia) to mean “turning from sin.” This is not the biblical definition of repentance. In the Bible, the word repent means “to change one’s mind.” The Bible also tells us that true repentance will result in a change of actions (Luke 3:8-14; Acts 3:19). Acts 26:20 declares …
“I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds” (Acts 26:20).
The full biblical definition of repentance is a change of mind that results in a change of action. What, then, is the connection between repentance and salvation? The Book of Acts seems to especially focus on repentance in regards to salvation (Acts 2:38; 3:19; 11:18; 17:30; 20:21; 26:20). To repent, in relation to salvation, is to change your mind in regard to Jesus Christ. In Peter’s sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts chapter 2), he concludes with a call for the people to repent (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Peter is calling the people who rejected Jesus (Acts 2:36) to change their minds about Him, to recognize that He is indeed “Lord and Christ” (Acts 2:36). Peter is calling the people to change their minds from rejection of Christ as the Messiah to faith in Him as both Messiah and Savior. Repentance and faith can be understood as “two sides of the same coin.” It is impossible to place your faith in Jesus Christ as the Savior without first changing your mind about who He is and what He has done. Whether it is repentance from willful rejection or repentance from ignorance or disinterest, it is a change of mind. Biblical repentance, in relation to salvation, is changing your mind from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ. It is crucially important that we understand repentance is not a work we do to earn salvation. No one can repent and come to God unless God pulls that person to Himself (John 6:44). Acts 5:31 and 11:18 indicate that repentance is something God gives—it is only possible because of His grace. No one can repent unless God grants repentance. All of salvation, including repentance and faith, is a result of God drawing us, opening our eyes, and changing our hearts. God’s longsuffering leads us to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), as does His kindness (Romans 2:4). While repentance is not a work that earns salvation, repentance unto salvation does result in works. It is impossible to truly and fully change your mind without that causing a change in action. In the Bible, repentance results in a change in behavior. That is why John the Baptist called people to “produce fruit in keeping with repentance” (Matthew 3:8). A person who has truly repented from rejection of Christ to faith in Christ will give evidence of a changed life (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 5:19-23; James 2:14-26). Repentance, properly defined, is necessary for salvation. Biblical repentance is changing your mind about Jesus Christ and turning to God in faith for salvation (Acts 3:19). Turning from sin is NOT the definition of repentance, but it is one of the results of genuine, faith-based repentance towards the Lord Jesus Christ. Well, so much for the Acts 17:30 conditional salvation view. Another one bites the dust.
THE BIBLE SAYS > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – “There is no other requirement,” you say, other than faith? No obedience needed? My Bible says God gives His spirit “to them that obey him”: “And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him” (Acts 5:32). My Bible says Jesus will save those who obey Him: “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him” (Hebrews 5:8,9). My Bible says we need to obey the gospel: “In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” (2 Thess 1:8). “For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?” (1 Peter 4:17)
So, what do we need to do to obey God? “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30). “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost” (Acts 2:38). “Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.” (Jesus, in Luke 13:4,5). And BTW, Abraham would never have received the promised blessings by claiming “faith alone” and not obeying. God explained to Abraham’s son Isaac WHY Abraham received the promised blessings: “Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws” (Genesis 26:5).
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > THE BIBLE SAYS – Gospel News Flash To “The Bible Says” … Obeying the gospel to receive salvation as stated in Hebrews 5:8-9, 2 Thessalonians 1:5 and 1 Peter 4:17 is speaking about believing on Christ for salvation. First off, one has to properly understand exactly what the gospel is in order to properly obey it. Jesus explained what the gospel is in many places, and guess what, it’s not obedience in performing works to obtain salvation or keeping it. Jesus plainly said that the gospel message of salvation is wrapped up in faith in him (John 3:15-16) and John 3:18 which boldly declares …
“He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
See, it’s faith, not works period. That being the case, the only way to “obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ” as stated in 2 Thessalonians 1:8 is to believe. That is what these “obey” scriptures are speaking about. I noticed you’re citing Luke 13 yet again. Obviously, you’re paying no attention to the fact that I just properly explained that verse in one of my other replies to you above, so I’ll not repeat. Go back and read it and let it sink in. You also cited Acts 17:30 yet again when I already eviscerated and decapitated that conditional eternal security view above with the proper interpretation using scripture when you mentioned it the first time. Either you are ignoring it or you’re not bothering to read it. To top it off, you still seem to have a hard time understanding that Romans 11:29 indicates that eternal life will not be revoked …
“For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance (Romans 11:29).
That means God won’t take it back from you. Sound contradictory to your view of things? Well, it should, because it is. You have no answer for that, nor do you have an answer for John 6:39 wherein Christ said that he will lose no one. You can’t seem to grasp onto the fact that your view of conditional salvation contradicts those three aforementioned scriptures that clearly state that salvation cannot be lost. Either that, or you’re just ignoring them. Would you at least agree that if the bible is truly the inspired word of God, it cannot and does not contradict itself? So, obviously, there’s a contradiction going on here with your conditional salvation view and the aforementioned scriptures. Obviously, the conditional salvation view cannot be correct based on that. It’s just a process of logical deduction. By the way, the Abraham argument … very weak example indeed as to cause me to wonder at your understanding of Old Covenant vs. New Covenant. Do you not understand that the bible says that Abraham “believed” God and it was credited to him for righteousness? …
“What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:1-5).
Ouch! That one just decapitated your Abraham conditional salvational security view with a sternness. But wait, there’s more …
“Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness. Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham. And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham (Galations 3:6-9).
Ouch again, that must have hurt. Even Old Covenant salvation is through faith and not works. That pretty much destroys your view of Abrahamic works salvation obtainment and preservation. Further, as part of your Abraham argument in defense of your works view, you cite Genesis 26:5, which isn’t even referencing salvation but something else altogether. At this point, I’ve pretty much conclusively proven that the works based salvation obtainment and salvation preservation view is horribly lacking as to be beyond redeeming or saving. With all due respect, the one leg you were standing on just got kicked out from underneath you. In light of all the scriptural evidence I’ve presented, it’s time to bury this dead carcass once and for all. It has no life left in it.
BILL ERICKSON > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – John 5:29 and what about 1 John describing what a CHRISTAIN looks like.(note:not all believers are Christains)Christains are those who are IN CHRIST(presently) Look what 1 John says about those who have eternal life (much more than just “believing “) If we are THOSE WHO: Are born of God Have life Love God Overcome world Have confidence before God have Gods seed Will live forever Have come to know Him Are cleansed of all sin and unrighteousness Live in the light Have God living in us And us in Him Will live forever Are a Child of God. (These are all synomous with eternal life and a saved person) THEN WE MUST ALSO BE THOSE WHO: walk in the light Keep his commands Live as Jesus did Love brothers and sisters Do the will of God Do what is right Purify themselves Quit sinning Have hearts that dont condemn us Have his Spirit Listen to apostles teaching
Love one another Kepp his commands(and they are not burdensome) What we have heard from beginning is remaining in us Believe Jesus is the Son of God Accept testimony that eternal life is in the Son I bet that you would argree that last two are important but what about the rest? This is what faith looks like.these are synonymous terms for a CHRISTAIN. 1 John 3:7 speaks clearly against this doctrine you are promoting DEAR CHILDREN,DO NOT LET ANYONE LEAD YOU ASTRAY (like Dr.Charles Stanley) THE ONE WHO DOES WHAT IS RIGHT IS RIGHTEOUS,JUST AS HE IS RIGHTEOUS. THE ONE WHO DOES WHAT IS SINFUL IS OF THE DEVIL,BECAUSE THE DEVIL HAS BEEN SINNING FROM THE BEGINNING. …NO ONE WHO IS BORN OF GOD WILL CONTINUE TO SIN ANYONE WHO DOES NOT PRACTICE RIGHTEOUSNESS IS NOT OF GOD. we musT quit sinning and pursue righteousness or we are lost (never born again or apostate or whatever)BUT LOST. prov.15:9 The way of the wicked is an abomination to the Lord,but he LOVES THOSE WHO PURSUE RIGHTEOUSNESS prov.28:13whoever conceals their sins does not prosper,but whoever CONFESS AND RENOUNCES them finds MERCY.
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > BILL ERICKSON – I’ve already addressed John 5:29 above, but will do so again. John 5:29 isn’t saying what you think it’s saying. If it is, then it would contradict John 6:39 in which Jesus said he will lose no one. It would also contradict Romans 11:29 in which the statement is made that the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. This is just to name two scriptures it would contradict. The scripture you have presented to me is very easily explained once one knows the correct context. This scripture really poses no problem at all to the eternal security view. The “those that have done good” here are referring and describing the lives of those who have received new life by Jesus “by faith.” The good being described here are the resulting works that the believer performs as a result of being saved to begin with through faith alone. It’s the initial belief that is saving this person, not the good works. The “good” Jesus is describing here are the works as a result of the saving faith, but it’s the faith that God requires in order for a believer’s works to not be seen as filthy rags. He is not saying that his “doing good works” saved him and brought him into eternal life. He is describing the symptom of the saving faith. You are missing John 1:12 which says that the children of God are those who believe in Jesus’ name. You’re missing John 3:16 which says that those who believe on Jesus has eternal life. You’re missing John 3:36 which says that whoever believes in Jesus has eternal life. You’re missing John 5:24 which says that he who believes him who sent me has eternal life. Judgment in scripture is always on the basis of works. This does not mean that salvation is on the basis of works. This gospel makes it plain over and over again that men enter eternal life when they believe on Jesus Christ. But the lives they live form the test of the faith they profess. So, Jesus is saying here in John 5:29 that the good are symptomatic of the already saving faith within the person. This is what he is talking about when he says …
“those who have done good unto the resurrection of life and those that have done evil unto the resurrection of damnation (John 5:29).
The damned have nothing but their works to go with and no faith, which is what is damning them. This is the correct context of what Jesus is saying here. When this is understood, all of the confusion and contradiction clears away. When your view of John 5:29 is held onto, contradiction of scripture occurs. If the Bible truly is the divinely inspired word of God, it won’t contradict itself. Therefore, your view of John 5:29 is incorrect just on that basis alone. Some of the other items on the list you have presented me with are very nebulus. The ones that aren’t as nebulous you’ve presented out of biblical context. So, let’s go through them one at a time. First, you cite:
“BORN OF GOD” – This one is baffling. Being “born of God” indicates you have been saved. What does being “born of God” have to do with losing salvation? In the scriptural context, one is “born of God” as a result of trusting Jesus as savior, not as a result of works. It is what the New Covenant is all about. I could quote scripture to you from now until the rapture to justify that statement. You get that from 1 John 3:9 which says the following … “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9). This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave causing your spirit to be “unborn.” However, any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. You can’t make it any clearer than 1 John 3:9. You have taken this scripture entirely out of context. This is not a scripture warning that if a believer
commits sin, he is not a true saved, born again believer or will lose his or her salvation. It is making a statement that if you have been born again by receiving Christ, your spirit cannot commit sin because the seed of the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit is within you and remains in you. Any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. Man is a tri-part being. He is body, soul and spirit. Your spirit is what is going to Heaven because it has been regenerated back to life from it’s state of death. Your flesh is not. You conveniently leave that revelation out of the equation. Bottom line, this is what the Bible is saying when it speaks of being “born of God.” Not as you contend.
“HAVE LIFE” – Care to elaborate? You have not explained what you’re talking about by saying “having life.” If you mean being alive, well yea, that goes without saying. If you mean possessing the spirit of God within you as a result of salvation, that doesn’t even begin to make any sense when trying to say that “having life” is dependent upon losing salvation. Very confusing. You’ll need to explain what you mean by that statement and where you got it exactly and the verse in which you derived that phrase from. When you do that, we can go from there and dissect it scripturally.
“LOVE GOD” – Your nebulous “love God” statement portraying a condition on retaining salvation is very baffling indeed. This scripture is not warning us to perform and keep an outward set of rules and laws to maintain salvation. Loving God is wrapped up in receiving his Son as saviour. Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment is by a Pharisee who was considered to be “an expert in the law” (Matthew 22:34–36). Jesus answered by saying, “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and most important commandment. The second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets depend on these two commandments” (Matthew 22:37–40). The correct context here is that Jesus was talking to Pharisees, harsh keepers of the law who were always trying to trip up Jesus and catch him in saying something in which they could bring a case against him. The Pharisees were religious law keepers who taught that salvation came by keeping the law, which scripture reveals is impossible. Jesus was essentially saying that all of the commandments are wrapped up in loving God and your neighbor as yourself. This is an impossibility to maintain 24 hours a day. Jesus was saying that if you are going to keep the whole law for salvation, which we know is impossible, then it can be wrapped up in Jesus and receiving him because he fulfilled the complete law. When you receive Jesus, you’ve essentially cast your dependence upon him to meet the required conditions of salvation and keeping it. This is what Jesus is getting at in this scripture. I’m afraid you’ve taken it out of context by implying a constant outward act or inward emotion that requires constant active effort of works. This is not a “do this or else” scripture. Jesus was saying something stupendously more profound than that.
“OVERCOME WORLD” – Honestly, this one is just too easy. You’ve cherry picked this scripture while seemingly ignoring the Bible’s definition of a person “overcoming the world” in relation to a person’ s salvation. This is not a command to do or keep a set of rules and requirements in order to be considered someone who has “overcome the world.” The following scripture in 1 John is the Bible’s definition of “overcoming the world” in relation to salvation and keeping it … “For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?” (1 John 5:4-5). Very clearly, the Bible defines an overcomer as being someone who believes that Jesus is the Son of God. This is how one gets saved. Notice there is no command there to do this and do that in order to be considered a biblical overcomer regarding salvation and keeping it. Again, you cherry picked that scripture without even considering the context in which it is presented.
“HAVE CONFIDENCE BEFORE GOD” – Honesty, I’m seeing visions of cherries in my head at this point. Nowhere in scripture will you even get the slightest hint that salvation and keeping it is dependent upon “having confidence before God” as you present it. Here is where you likely got this idea from …
“And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him. For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us” (1 John 3:10-24). You have grossly misunderstood this passage of scripture. This is simply saying that we know we are of the truth (the doctrine of salvation through Christ) if we keep his commandment? What commandment? Answer: “… that we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment” (verse 23). The fulfilling of all these commandments is wrapped up in having the spirit of God dwelling in you as a result of salvation, not outward acts of law and commandment keeping in order to receive and maintain salvation. This is simply saying that these characteristics will naturally be present in some form or another if one is truly saved. As verse 24 puts it, as a result of having been born again and having God’s spirit inside of us judicially, these characteristics naturally flow out from that. This is not a command to “do this or else lose your salvation and be damned.”
“HAVE GOD’S SEED” – I’ve already explained this one above under your “Born of God” category.
“HAVE COME TO KNOW HIM” – One comes to “know God” through receiving salvation through Christ. This is not a statement of having to perform “outward works” to try to get to know him. This isn’t a hint that we are to pray all of the time in order to get to know him more and more or else we will somehow lose our salvation if we don’t. The initial step of knowing god is to receive him as savior for the salvation of the soul. This is the one and only required step in knowing God to receive and keep salvation. Any further steps taken in knowing God through a continuous nurturing of a prayer life and reading the Bible is for a fellowship beyond just salvation. It is not a continual nurturing of Knowing God that salvation is maintained and not losing salvation. You have read into that Biblical theme something that is just not there.
“ARE CLEANSED OF ALL SIN AND UNRIGHTEOUSNESS” – One gets cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness by receiving Christ as savior. One’s soul is judicially cleansed of all
sin and unrighteousness by having the seed of the Holy Spirit within them as a result of receiving Christ as savior, as 1 John 3 reveals. I’ve already covered that above. We do still sin in the flesh, but our flesh is not what is going to Heaven, Our Spirit is what is going to Heaven. This is what is meant when one is cleansed from all sin and unrighteousness. Scripture is clear about the fact that cleansing of our spirit does not take place through outward acts of refraining from sin. When doing that, you are essentially trying to cleanse your flesh, not your spirit. You seem to fail to understand the tri-part being of man. Your spirit is cleansed through Christ already, not your flesh. Therefore, no more outward acts of self-righteousness or law keeping are going to make one bit of difference in a person getting or keeping salvation.
“LIVE IN THE LIGHT” – To “walk in the light” is a common metaphor within Christian culture. It is often taken to mean “acting correctly” or even “living openly.” Biblically, however, the phrase has the idea of relinquishing sin by following Jesus for the purpose of maturing in the faith, not for “maintaining or keeping one’s salvation. The only Old Testament occurrence of this precise phrase is in Isaiah 2:5, “O house of Jacob, come and let us walk in the light of the Lord.” The Psalms contain similar phrases (56:13; 89:15), as does Isaiah (9:2; 50:10-11; 59:9). In the New Testament, “walking in the light” is directly related to following Jesus, who said, “I am the light of the world. He who follows me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life” (John 8:12). While this verse does not directly say, “Walk in the light, i.e., Jesus,” it does pointedly warn of doing the opposite; therefore, those who follow Jesus are “walking in the light.” This means that if you follow Jesus, your spirit man is no longer walking in the darkness. This has to do with salvation of the soul walking in light, not shrouded in a lost and unsaved condition and not
knowing who God is. It’s spiritual light and darkness. Not about works at all. You’ve again read into the text something that is just not there. To “walk” is, in short, to live one’s life, yes indeed. One’s lifestyle or way of life can be considered a “walk.” The word also indicates progress. Walking is related to growth; it is taking steps toward maturity. “Light” in the Bible can be a metaphor for life, happiness, righteousness, or understanding. The Bible is clear that light comes from the Lord God, the “Father of the heavenly lights” (James 1:17). He is the opposite of evil. Putting it all together, “walking in the light” means “growing in holiness and maturing in the faith as we follow Jesus.” This is not insinuating that if a saved, born again believer veers off the path of a righteous walk, he or she will split Hell wide open when they die. It’s about maturing in the faith, or what the Bible calls “sanctification.” Not salvation, but sanctification.
“LISTEN TO APOSTLE’S TEACHING” – What? Nowhere does the Bible imply that we are to continuously “listen to Apostle’s teaching” in order to maintain salvation. One gets saved by hearing or reading their teachings of salvation through Christ of course, but you are making it sound as if this has to be an ongoing ritual type of thing in order to maintain your salvation. This one is bemusing quite honestly.
“KEEPING HIS COMMANDS (AND THEY ARE NOT BURDENSOME)” – The saying “my yoke is easy and my burden is light” is part of a larger passage (Matthew 11:28–30), in which Jesus tells all who are weary and burdened to come to Him for rest. He isn’t speaking here of physical burdens. Rather, it was the heavy burden of the system of works that the Pharisees laid on the backs of the people that Jesus was offering to relieve. Later on in Matthew’s Gospel, Jesus will rebuke the Pharisees for laying heavy burdens on the shoulders of the people (Matthew 23:4). The “yoke of the Pharisees” is the burdensome yoke of self-righteousness and legalistic law-keeping. It has been said by biblical scholars that the Pharisees had added over 600 regulations regarding what qualified as “working” on the Sabbath. That is a heavy burden! Recall the story of the lawyer who asked Jesus what was the greatest commandment of the Law (Matthew 22:36). You can almost read between the lines of the man’s question: “What law, of all the laws we have, do I absolutely have to keep?” Jesus was saying that any kind of law-keeping is burdensome and amounts to a “heavy yoke” of oppression because no amount of law-keeping can bridge the gap between our sinfulness and God’s holiness. God says through the mouth of the prophet Isaiah that all of our righteous deeds are like a “polluted garment,” and Paul reiterated to the Romans that “no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law” (Romans 3:20). The good news is that Jesus promises to all who come to Him that He will give them rest from the heavy burden of trying to earn our way into heaven and rest from the oppressive yoke of self-righteousness and legalism. Jesus encourages those who are “heavy laden” to take His yoke upon them, and in so doing they will find rest for their souls. The yoke of Jesus is light and easy to carry because it is the yoke of repentance and faith followed by a singular commitment to follow Him. As the apostle John says, “For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome” (1 John 5:3). This is what Jesus says in Matthew 11:30. His yoke is easy and His burden light. Now, we might think that there is really no difference between the commandments of Jesus and the Jewish Law. Isn’t the same God responsible for both? Technically speaking, yes. If anything, one might argue that the commands of Jesus are even more burdensome because His reformulation of the Mosaic Law in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5—7) actually goes above and beyond a mere outward conformity to the Law and deals instead with the inner person. What makes Jesus’ yoke easy and His burden light is that in Jesus’ own active obedience (i.e., His perfect fulfillment of the Law of God), He carried the burden that we were meant to carry. His perfect obedience is applied (imputed) to us through faith, just as His righteousness was exchanged for our sin at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). Our obedience to Jesus then becomes our “spiritual worship” (Romans 12:1). Furthermore, we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who works in our lives to mold us into the image of Christ, thereby making the yoke of Jesus easy and His burden light. The life lived by faith is a much lighter yoke and a much easier burden to carry than the heavy and burdensome yoke of self-righteousness under which some continually strive to make themselves acceptable to God through works. Bottom line, this scripture doesn’t even begin to imply that a born again believer is in danger of losing his or her salvation.
“PROVERBS 15:9” – You are reading into this something that is not even there. Proverbs 15:9 says, “The LORD detests the way of the wicked, but he loves those who pursue righteousness.” If God wants us to pursue righteousness, then what about verses such as Romans 3:10 that say, “There is none righteous, no not one”? If no one is righteous, then who can really pursue it? Are those verses contradictory? Before we can pursue righteousness, we need to define it. The word most often translated “righteousness” can also mean “justice, justness, or divine holiness.” In the broadest sense, righteousness can be defined as “the condition of being acceptable to God as made possible only by God.” This kind of righteousness can only come through imputed righteousness through being born of God through the covenant of faith in Christ. God’s standard is what defines true righteousness; His power is what enables it. Unless God is its author, we will never possess righteousness. No amount of man-made effort will result in righteousness. To be righteous is to be right with God. A heart that is right with God results in a life that bears “fruit” (John 15:1–2; Mark 4:20). Galatians 5:22-23 lists some of that fruit. A common substitute for true righteousness is self-righteousness. Self-righteousness is the opposite of what God desires. Self-righteousness makes a list of rules and checks them off, congratulating itself on how well it is doing compared to others. The Pharisees of Jesus’ day were masters of self-righteousness, but Jesus had harsh words for them: “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness” (Matthew 23:27–28). To pursue righteousness means we must recognize that we cannot please God in our sinful state (Romans 8:8). We turn from trying to justify ourselves by our good deeds and instead seek the mercy of God. We desire that He transform our minds (Romans 12:2) and conform us “to the image of His Son” (Romans 8:29). In the Old Testament, men were declared righteous when they believed God and acted on it (Genesis 15:7; Galatians 3:6; James 2:23). Before Pentecost (Acts 2:1–4), people pursued righteousness by keeping God’s Law, seeking holiness, and “walking humbly with God” (Micah 6:8). No one was justified by rule-keeping but by the faith that enabled them to obey God (Romans 3:20; Galatians 2:16). Likewise, today we are justified by the faith that leads us to Jesus (Romans 3:28; 5:1; 10:10). Those who are in Christ continue seeking God in order to please Him (Colossians 3:1). When we come to faith in Christ, He gives us the Holy Spirit who empowers us to pursue righteousness for its own sake (Acts 2:38). He commands us to “walk in the Spirit” (Galatians 5:16, 25). Walking in the Spirit means we live a lifestyle of total surrender to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. We cultivate the ability to hear God and the habit of obeying His voice in everything. We pursue righteousness when we pursue the character of Christ and desire holiness more than fleshly indulgence. We avoid the temptation to become self-righteous when we understand that true righteousness begins with godly humility (Psalm 25:90). We remember that Jesus said, “Apart from me you can do nothing” (John 15:5). When we spend time in the presence of God, we become more aware of our own sin and shortcomings. A dingy shirt looks white beside a dark wall. But, when compared with snow, the same shirt looks dirty. Pride and self-righteousness cannot remain in the presence of a holy God. Pursuing righteousness begins when a humble heart seeks the continual presence of God (James 4:10; 1 Peter 5:6). The humble, believing heart leads to a lifestyle of righteous action acceptable to God (Psalm 51:10). There is nothing in Proverbs 15:9 that implies the loss of salvation. “PROVERBS 28:13” – You also read into this scripture something that is not even there. “He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.” There is absolutely nothing in that verse of scripture that even hints at losing salvation if secrets of sin are kept. It is talking about prospering in the intent of the sin. It also speaks of getting mercy for the results of the said sin, and being forgiven in it’s manifestation against you. The few other ones that you listed I’ve already covered further up in this thread and thoroughly explained. This is the kind of erroneous belief system about losing salvation that emerges when one doesn’t read the proper context and chooses to cherry pick scripture. On top of all of this, you still haven’t answered the fact that what you believe about said scriptures concerning the idea of being able to lose salvation contradicts what Jesus himself said out of his very own mouth in John 6:39. He clearly said that he will lose no one. If the Bible is the inspired word of God, everyone agrees that it will not contradict itself. Yet, your belief about above scriptures indicates in your mind that one can lose salvation despite what Jesus said in John 6:39. Apparently, you can’t even see the obvious contradiction in scripture here if your view is correct. Not only John 6:39, but also Romans 11:29. I think it’s obvious by now to everyone reading that the conditional salvation view is terribly lacking in understanding and credibility and that people should not put a burdensome yoke of spiritual oppression around their necks throughout their lives in fear of splitting Hell wide open when they die if they aren’t measuring up in good deeds and works. There’s only one way to measure up. Receive Jesus Christ as savior plus nothing. So what about John 6:39 Bill? Contradictory much? What say you?
BILL ERICKSON > END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING – all these are from 1 John.i am not necessarily saying you must do all these things ,what i am saying is that they represent a CHRISTAIN,the reason John wrote the letter so that a BELIEVER (which we are)could known if THEY WERE TRULY SAVED AND HAD ETERNAL LIFE. it is a way to test ourselves,as Paul told us to do (1cor.13:5 and also before taking part in Lordd supper) and i am very troubled at your statement about only th e SPIRIT sinning and not the body.this was a heresy by the GNOSTICS THAT JOHN WRPTE HIS GOSPEL AND THIS LETTER TO COMBAT! my dear brother,please spend some time and read the ANTI NICENE FATHERS(can easily be found online)and read how they interpreted the scriptures in the late first century and early 2nd century. 2 cor.7:1 since WE HAVE THESE PROMISES(saved)let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of BODY AND SPIRIT, bringing holiness to perfection/completion IN THE FEAR OF GOD. i hope you are not living in sin.i pray only your doctrine is flawed. and without fellowship with God you are lost.the blood of Jesus cleanses us from all sin when we are walkimg in the light. 1John1:6,7 John 8:12 and everyone who sins commits lawlesness (1John8:34) and Jesus said depart from me ,you workers of lawlessness (mat7:22) DO NOT BE DECEVED ,A MAN REAPS WHAT HE SOWS. sinning against our body is WORSE than sinning against our soul.and sin wages war against our soul! by the way,i am not calling YOU lost.i am speaking in general. i am not trying to cleanse my flesh,but to keep it in the grave where i put when i came up out of the water. may none of us die a wet sinner. also our SPIRIT is not going to heaven.HEAVEN IS COMING HERE,THE KINGDOM OF. our BODIES WILL BE RAISED AND GLORIFIED.TRANSFORMED. john 5:29 ALL who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out.THOSE WHO HAVE DONE WHAT IS GOOD (which we can only do if we stay on the vine/abide in Christ ny keeping his commands out of love)WILL RISE TO LIVE
END TIMES: DARKNESS DESCENDING > BILL ERICKSON – You should not be troubled at my statement. You mentioned that I said something I clearly did not say. I did not say that “only the spirit sins and not the body.” What I said was that we sin in our body, but our spirit man has been regenerated back into life by receiving Jesus Christ as savior, and thus the seed of the Holy Spirit resides there, with the end result being that our spirit man cannot sin because it has been regenerated back unto life by the Holy Spirit. Read verse 9, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remains in him (speaking of the Holy Spirit’s seed); and he CANNOT SIN because he is born of God” (1 John 3:9). This is clearly saying that a born again believer’s spirit (the part of you that is going to Heaven) cannot sin because the seed of the Holy Spirit remains in you. It does not leave causing your spirit to be “unborn.” However, any sin a believer commits is committed in the flesh, not the spirit. Verse 9 of 1 John 3 proves this … “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: AND HE CANNOT SIN BECAUSE HE IS BORN OF GOD.” Did you get that? It says He cannot sin. That means the spirit man is no longer in a state of sin. There is a difference between a person’s spirit being in a state of
sin and a person committing acts of sin. Before we are saved, each and every person’s spirit-man is in a state of death. Our souls are not regenerated. This is what 1 John 3:9 is getting at. You cite 2 Corinthians 7:1 which says the following … “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God” 2 Corinthians 7:1). But yet again, you use this scripture out of context. What is crucially important to understand is the fact that 2 Corinthinas 7:1 is a continuation of chapter 6. So to get the meat of what is truly being said here, we must look at chapter 6. Here is what you read in chapter 6 just a few verses before 2 Corinthians 7:1 … “Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you. And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty” (2 Corinthians 6:14-18). Notice that these verses are speaking about idol worship. This is referring to unsaved idol worshippers of that day. One who worshipped idols is very indicative of one who is not saved to begin with. This is not talking about a believer possibly losing salvation. God was urging them to come out from among idol worship and touch not the unclean thing (idols – which is indicative of not being saved) and he will receive them as sons and daughters. Again, this is nothing to do with a saved person in covenant with God. This is more to do with calling out a chosen people from among unsaved, out-of-covenan people and bringing said chosen people into a saving relationship with God. But they themselves initially are not saved. This is where you are misinterpreting what is being said in 2 Corinthians 7:1. Bringing holiness to perfection has more to do with our walk of fellowship with God and our sanctification, not salvation. This is obvious because otherwise, the possibility of it meaning what you seem to think it means would contradict John 6:39 where Jesus clearly says he will lose no one. You also cite 1 John 1:6-7. Again, taken out of context. This is talking about our fellowship with God, not our relationship. This is speaking of a person who claims fellowship with God, but does not have the light of the Gospel, meaning the revelation of salvation through Christ. An unbeliever in other words who has not received Christ and is in darkness. It is not talking about walking in works and keeping laws and regulations and good deeds to earn or keep salvation. You then cite John 8:12, yet another butchered scripture … “Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life” (John 8:12). This also has to do with what I just said above about 1 John 1:6-7. All you have to do with John 8:12 is look at the verse that follows verse 12 (verse 13) and it tells you what is being said here. But if you leave that verse alone and just quote verse 12, you get the wrong interpretation of what is being said. Verse 13 explains verse 12. Here is verse 13 … “The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest record of thyself; thy record is not true.” Clearly, this is speaking of the revelation of who Christ is, thus it would result in salvation if believed. You seem to take verse 12 and believe that it is commanding that Christians or anyone else must perform the act of “not walking in darkness” if you follow Christ. That is not what is being conveyed here. It is saying that if one follows Jesus (is saved or born again i.e. has received him), he or she is not in a state of spiritual darkness (unsaved). This is not a command but a declaration of a person’s spiritual standing. This
is where you are going wrong with this verse of scripture. The next few words of verse 12 nail that point home when it says “but shall have the light of life.” You then cite John 8:34 – In order to fully understand this and not take it out of context, you must read the preceding verses and the ones that follow to get a full understanding of what is being said. “They answered him, We be Abraham’s seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. I know that ye are Abraham’s seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you” John 8:33-37). This is speaking of committing sin in the sense of a person’s spirit being in the state of sin or death, a person’s spirit being unregenerated in other words. Or unsaved. I already discussed this above. If your spirit is unregenerated, or you’re not saved, you are the servent of sin, thus in the state of sin . The following two verses make it clear what the overall point is. If the son makes you free, you are free indeed. That means you are no longer in the state of death. As you can now plainly see, you’ve quoted verse 34 out of context. You’ve cherry picked scripture yet again. You still fail to see that your interpretation of this scripture contradicts John 6:39- “I lose no one.” You also made the statement that we are not going to Heaven, but Heaven is coming to earth. Yes, Heaven comes to earth in the future, but right now, we ascend into Heaven or Paradise upon death. Heaven has not yet come down to earth. The thief on the cross, that’s all I have to say about that. Abiding in Christ does not mean performing works. Abiding in Christ is speaking of one’s standing with God through being born again. If one is saved, he is said to be abiding in Christ. To “abide” is to live, continue, or remain; so, to abide in Christ is to live in Him or remain in Him. When a person is saved, he or she is described as being “in Christ” (Romans 8:1; 2 Corinthians 5:17), held secure in a permanent relationship (John 10:28–29). Therefore, abiding in Christ is not a special level of Christian experience, available only to a few; rather, it is the position of all true believers. The difference between those abiding in Christ and those not abiding in Christ is the difference between the saved and the unsaved. Abiding in Christ is taught in 1 John 2:5–6, where it is synonymous with “knowing” Christ (verses 2 and 3). Later in the same chapter, John equates “remaining” in the Father and the Son with having the promise of eternal life (verses 24 and 25). Biblically, “abiding in,” “remaining in,” and “knowing” Christ are references to the same thing: salvation. The phrase abiding in Christ pictures an intimate, close relationship, and not just a superficial acquaintance. In John 15:4–7, Jesus tells His disciples that drawing life from Him is essential, using the picture of branches united to a vine: “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you” (John 15:4-7). Without that vital union with Christ that salvation provides, there can be no life and no productivity. Elsewhere, the Bible likens our relationship with Christ to that of a body with a head (Colossians 1:18)—another essential union. Some people take the warning of John 15:6 (branches that do not abide in the vine are thrown away and burned) to mean that Christians are always in danger of losing their salvation. In other words, they say it’s possible to be saved but not “abide,” in which case we would be cast away. But this could only be true if “abiding” were separate from salvation, referring to a state of intimacy with Christ we must strive to attain post-salvation. The Bible is clear that salvation comes by grace and is maintained by grace (Galatians 3:2–3). Also, if a branch could somehow fall away from the vine, resulting in the loss of salvation, then other, very clear passages of Scripture would be contradicted (see John 10:27–30). It is best to interpret the True Vine metaphor this way: Jesus is the True Vine, obviously. The branches who “abide” in Him are the truly saved—they have a real and vital connection to the Savior. The withered branches who do not “abide” in Him are the unsaved pretenders who feigned an attachment to the Vine but drew no life from Him. In the end, the pretenders will be seen for what they were: hangers-on who had no authentic attachment to Jesus. For a while, both Peter and Judas seemed identical in their walk with Christ. But Peter was attached to the Vine; Judas was not. John restates the withered-branch principle this way: “They [people now opposed to Christ] went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us” (1 John 2:19). One of the proofs of salvation is perseverance, or sustained abiding in Christ. The saved will continue in their walk with Christ (see Revelation 2:26). That is, they will “abide” or remain in Him. God will complete His work in them (Philippians 1:6), and they will bring forth much fruit to the glory of God (John 15:5). Those who fall away, turn their backs on Christ, or fail to abide simply show their lack of saving faith. Abiding is not what saves us, but it is one of the signs of salvation. You then cite John 5:29 again, which I already explained in my first response to you. No need to do it again. Again, it’s pretty clear that conditional eternal security is false. All one needs to know is John 6:39when Jesus makes this stunning and very comforting statement … “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.”